I have a couple friends who are doing/have done V6 swaps into their MR2s and are considering engine management, so I'm wondering what's available in terms of factory ECUs for V6 engines (the OEM systems have the memory embedded in the main processor and require a daughterboard to make any modifications).
I've been looking at the nissan ECUs and they seem promising (and I've got a CAS for one downstairs). I've also looked into the GM ECM, and they seem by far the most versatile, but I'd prefer sequential fuel injection if possible. Does anyone else have any suggestions that I could look into? Both the nissan and GM units also seem to have 6400rpm as the upper limit of the fuel and ignition tables. I'm guessing this is pretty standard, but control above that level would be peachy. The honda NSX/legend ECU also looks promising, but the cam triggers are a bit more difficult to replicate on a 1MZ/3VZFE (though not impossible).
I like these kind of challenges, I'm just wondering if anyone has any good suggestions for management systems that I may not have thought of. Thanks!
Wondering what a good ECU would be for a V6..
Moderators: Mangus, robertisaar, dex
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Six_Shooter
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:32 am
There are GM ECMs that will run SFI. A couple are older but are not very supprted by the DIY tuning community.
The more common SFI ECM to use is an OBD2 PCM, I don't recall the actual service number, but "'411" seems to come to mind. Looking at the DIY PROM and DFI/ECM forums on thirdgen.org would give better insight into that possibility.
IIRC it does require some pricey equipment and "licences" for the software. There also no real time tuning with the OBD2 PCM in stock form. I've wondered if the RoadRunner from Moates could be used in non-LSx applications, that would give real time tuning capability.
I use a '7749 running $59 (www.code59.org) on my Nissan L28 I6 in my 1973 Datsun, and it runs great. This is a batch fire ECM, but has no problem with 30 lbs/hr injectors on my 2.8L and has been known to run 80 lbs/hr injectors on 4.3L V6s. With some small modifications it can run 6 to 8 low-Z injectors. In stock form, it can run 4 low-Z injectors. A '7730 can be used in place of a '7749, but has only one injector driver, and should only be used with high-Z injectors because of that. If you need an underhood mount ECM, the '7727 is a good choice as well, and also has been tested with $59. Currently $59 is meant for forced induction applications, but I am working with the $59 authors to develop a 1 BAR version, to take advantage of the improvements that have been made with $59, such as the WBO2 closed loop fueling control.
I recently modified a couple Nissan ECMs for a friend of mine to install Nistune boards, and after seeing these first hand, I have to say I like the idea, real time tuning through the use of the Consult cable. I didn't get a chance to see the softeware, but the screenshots look decent.
I believe there are some Nissan XDFs for use with Tuner Pro as well, and after changing the EPROM in the ECM out for DIP socket, you could then use an EPROM Emulator, such as the Moates Ostrich 2.0 along with a program like Tuner Pro RT for real time tuning. I have a couple Nissan bins that I read from the EPROMs I removed, but haven't done anything with them yet, too much else on the go right now.
The RPM limits are more code related than hardware related, I know there is a version of $59 that has higher RPM mapping, though it has not be officially released yet. I hope to have that soon, since my engine will make power well above 6400 RPM. I'm mostly wanting to be able to set the shiftlight at a higher RPM than 6375. Fuel and spark mapping will use the the 6400 RPM values above 6400 RPM. Rev limiter can be set higher with no problem, at least in $59 it can, I haven't tested other code to know for sure if the same applies there. I plan to test that more, with other code, once I get my test bench up and running again.
Hope that helps.
The more common SFI ECM to use is an OBD2 PCM, I don't recall the actual service number, but "'411" seems to come to mind. Looking at the DIY PROM and DFI/ECM forums on thirdgen.org would give better insight into that possibility.
IIRC it does require some pricey equipment and "licences" for the software. There also no real time tuning with the OBD2 PCM in stock form. I've wondered if the RoadRunner from Moates could be used in non-LSx applications, that would give real time tuning capability.
I use a '7749 running $59 (www.code59.org) on my Nissan L28 I6 in my 1973 Datsun, and it runs great. This is a batch fire ECM, but has no problem with 30 lbs/hr injectors on my 2.8L and has been known to run 80 lbs/hr injectors on 4.3L V6s. With some small modifications it can run 6 to 8 low-Z injectors. In stock form, it can run 4 low-Z injectors. A '7730 can be used in place of a '7749, but has only one injector driver, and should only be used with high-Z injectors because of that. If you need an underhood mount ECM, the '7727 is a good choice as well, and also has been tested with $59. Currently $59 is meant for forced induction applications, but I am working with the $59 authors to develop a 1 BAR version, to take advantage of the improvements that have been made with $59, such as the WBO2 closed loop fueling control.
I recently modified a couple Nissan ECMs for a friend of mine to install Nistune boards, and after seeing these first hand, I have to say I like the idea, real time tuning through the use of the Consult cable. I didn't get a chance to see the softeware, but the screenshots look decent.
I believe there are some Nissan XDFs for use with Tuner Pro as well, and after changing the EPROM in the ECM out for DIP socket, you could then use an EPROM Emulator, such as the Moates Ostrich 2.0 along with a program like Tuner Pro RT for real time tuning. I have a couple Nissan bins that I read from the EPROMs I removed, but haven't done anything with them yet, too much else on the go right now.
The RPM limits are more code related than hardware related, I know there is a version of $59 that has higher RPM mapping, though it has not be officially released yet. I hope to have that soon, since my engine will make power well above 6400 RPM. I'm mostly wanting to be able to set the shiftlight at a higher RPM than 6375. Fuel and spark mapping will use the the 6400 RPM values above 6400 RPM. Rev limiter can be set higher with no problem, at least in $59 it can, I haven't tested other code to know for sure if the same applies there. I plan to test that more, with other code, once I get my test bench up and running again.
Hope that helps.
Wow, thanks for such a comprehensive reply!
I actually have the $59 code on my old computer, and I've been a lurker over there for a few years, but my ADHD prevents me from remembering to check in on a regular basis, if only because I'm not actively using it on anything.
I have a 7749 ECM/plugs in a box that I had planned to use on my MR2, with the $49 code and honestly, that's the primary candidate right now for use on the 3VZ. I'm hoping it's possible to use the DIS module/crank trigger on the 1MZ to run wasted spark but I'm not completely sure on the module's compatibility with the 7749/$49/59 code. AFAIK, it outputs a 5v square wave to trigger the ECM, and accepts a single ignition trigger channel, so on the surface it seems like it would work just fine. Practice and theory, eh?
I'm not inherently opposed to batch fire injection, and I know GM's quasi-asynchronous and asynchronous injection strategies can work pretty well for small pulse widths on big injectors. I'm worried that the people whose cars I may be working on will insist on sequential injection.
I've got all the tuning tools already. I currently run a Honda/Acura P72 ECU on my MR2 turbo, tuned for E85 making somewhere around 300whp at 15psi. I'm trying to help the V6 guys out since they don't have much beyond the crazy spendy AEM and hydra units, and I figure much of what I learned doing the swap on my car can help them out.
Sounds like the GM might be the way to go. Any idea on the compatibility of the DIS module? or would i have to run the 3.4DOHC code?
Thanks again!!
-karl
I actually have the $59 code on my old computer, and I've been a lurker over there for a few years, but my ADHD prevents me from remembering to check in on a regular basis, if only because I'm not actively using it on anything.
I have a 7749 ECM/plugs in a box that I had planned to use on my MR2, with the $49 code and honestly, that's the primary candidate right now for use on the 3VZ. I'm hoping it's possible to use the DIS module/crank trigger on the 1MZ to run wasted spark but I'm not completely sure on the module's compatibility with the 7749/$49/59 code. AFAIK, it outputs a 5v square wave to trigger the ECM, and accepts a single ignition trigger channel, so on the surface it seems like it would work just fine. Practice and theory, eh?
I'm not inherently opposed to batch fire injection, and I know GM's quasi-asynchronous and asynchronous injection strategies can work pretty well for small pulse widths on big injectors. I'm worried that the people whose cars I may be working on will insist on sequential injection.
I've got all the tuning tools already. I currently run a Honda/Acura P72 ECU on my MR2 turbo, tuned for E85 making somewhere around 300whp at 15psi. I'm trying to help the V6 guys out since they don't have much beyond the crazy spendy AEM and hydra units, and I figure much of what I learned doing the swap on my car can help them out.
Sounds like the GM might be the way to go. Any idea on the compatibility of the DIS module? or would i have to run the 3.4DOHC code?
Thanks again!!
-karl
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Six_Shooter
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:32 am
You will likely find that you will need to run a GM ignition.
The signals to and from, may or may not be compatible from different manufacturers. I'm not so worried about the "ref" signal AKA "RPM", from the igintion to the ECM, but moreso the control signal from the ECM to the ignition control module.
I plan to look at compatibility of EDIS with a GM ECM, since I want to run DIS on my grandfather's/uncles/my T-bucket one day and the Ford EDIS system is easily found for 8 cylinder applications. But I will have to set-up a bench set-up with a running trigger wheel and strobe to verify compatibilty.
The ignition system you would need is very easily found, used on 60 degree V6 engines from 1987 to 2004, maybe even later. This is the DIS ignition I run on my car.
For reference here are a few pictures of how I did mine:
http://domestic.3400z24.com/sixshooter/ ... onversion/
A video (right click, save as):
http://domestic.3400z24.com/sixshooter/ ... I_2414.AVI
Now there are some changes needed to $59 to run DIS, which commands an extra 60* of spark advance due to the way the DIS ignition module works. So the logging file (ADS/ADX) can be modified to remove that addition displayed advance, to show what is actualy at the crank for advance. I have posted my lastes bin on the $59 site, that is for a 2.8L I6, DIS, 30 lbs/hr injectors, and a few other things I mention in the post. You might want to look at it, maybe use it as a starting base.
SFI is overrated.
You need to educate people on what SFI does and take away the mystery of the "buzz word".
For those that absolutly insist on SFI, sell them an AEM and tell them it costs that much to have your injectors fire sequential below 3000 RPM. To me the cost does NOT equal the benefits.
The signals to and from, may or may not be compatible from different manufacturers. I'm not so worried about the "ref" signal AKA "RPM", from the igintion to the ECM, but moreso the control signal from the ECM to the ignition control module.
I plan to look at compatibility of EDIS with a GM ECM, since I want to run DIS on my grandfather's/uncles/my T-bucket one day and the Ford EDIS system is easily found for 8 cylinder applications. But I will have to set-up a bench set-up with a running trigger wheel and strobe to verify compatibilty.
The ignition system you would need is very easily found, used on 60 degree V6 engines from 1987 to 2004, maybe even later. This is the DIS ignition I run on my car.
For reference here are a few pictures of how I did mine:
http://domestic.3400z24.com/sixshooter/ ... onversion/
A video (right click, save as):
http://domestic.3400z24.com/sixshooter/ ... I_2414.AVI
Now there are some changes needed to $59 to run DIS, which commands an extra 60* of spark advance due to the way the DIS ignition module works. So the logging file (ADS/ADX) can be modified to remove that addition displayed advance, to show what is actualy at the crank for advance. I have posted my lastes bin on the $59 site, that is for a 2.8L I6, DIS, 30 lbs/hr injectors, and a few other things I mention in the post. You might want to look at it, maybe use it as a starting base.
SFI is overrated.
You need to educate people on what SFI does and take away the mystery of the "buzz word".
For those that absolutly insist on SFI, sell them an AEM and tell them it costs that much to have your injectors fire sequential below 3000 RPM.
To me the cost does NOT equal the benefits.this is what interests me. i know the EDIS uses a spark angle word pulse width that is sent to the module, and the module calculates where to properly fire the coil based on the pulse width of the trigger signal. For the GM units, I was under the impression that all the crank angle calculation was done by the ECM rather than the module.Six_Shooter wrote:
The signals to and from, may or may not be compatible from different manufacturers. I'm not so worried about the "ref" signal AKA "RPM", from the igintion to the ECM, but moreso the control signal from the ECM to the ignition control module.
Am I correct in thinking that the DIS modules had a 5V trigger signal that fires the coil on the falling edge? Is the module picky about the EST signal edges coinciding with some part of the ref signal?
I'm running the Honda ECU with the Denso/Toyota ignition module (which also controls dwell) and all that was required for that was to invert the Honda trigger (rising edge to falling) and clamp it to 5V. Is the pulse fed to the GM module more like the EDIS? Or is it still an edge-triggered module? All the info I've found in MegaManual seems to indicate that it's edge-triggered.
This interests me on more than just the V6 front as well, since i've been considering making a crank wheel and using a GM DIS module with the Honda ECU. The ref signal from the module is very similar to the TDC signal the Honda ECU uses to batch fire the injectors during cranking to get the motor to light off more quickly. That would also get me one step closer to being able to do the Honda ECU conversion on other cars without having to graft the gigantic H/A distributor onto the 3SGTE head. While not particularly difficult, it clutters up an already tight engine bay.
Ugh, if I could only remember my username and password for the code59 forums..
Six_Shooter, I really appreciate your feedback. I dig your Z too, my wife has an 04 Z33, but she thinks the old ones are way sexier
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Six_Shooter
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:32 am
No problem man. 
Tell your wife I agree with her.
I'm thinking now I should at least throw a coat of primer on the Z since it's running pretty well now.
Anyway, back to you....
I have a feeling that the EDIS control will be eaiser than people are making it out to be.
You and I share the same aource for some of the information, while I'm definatly not an MS fan, I will use the information they provide to my advantage.
I'd be interested in this circuit you made to interface your Toyota dizzy to the Honda ECU, I may be able to use it or a variation of it for my EDIS trials.
The coil is fired on the rising edge, according to the Megamanual, but now you have me wondering which rising edge? As in pulse from the crank sensor or just from the EST signal. I'd have to assume at this point it's from the EST signal, and the CPS signal is more for reference or as a "back up", as used by the module. I think it will use the CPS at crank, or in LHM, but when it sees 5V on the ESC wire (tan/black), it will then wait for the EST signal.
One reason why I think EDIS will work, is because I use a JimStim on my test bench with GM ECMs, it is set to "EDIS/Distributer" setting. While I realize it's pretty lofty to think that the EDIS will just work directly with the GM ECM, I believe that it may not be as difficult as people are believing at this point.
I need to get a trigger wheel and CPS from an Escort to set up an EDIS test bench, and using a strobe check for changing timing. I have an EDIS-6 module already. I figured if I got it working on the bench, I could acid test it in my car, using that EDIS-6 module.
Tell your wife I agree with her.
I'm thinking now I should at least throw a coat of primer on the Z since it's running pretty well now.
Anyway, back to you....
I have a feeling that the EDIS control will be eaiser than people are making it out to be.
You and I share the same aource for some of the information, while I'm definatly not an MS fan, I will use the information they provide to my advantage.
I'd be interested in this circuit you made to interface your Toyota dizzy to the Honda ECU, I may be able to use it or a variation of it for my EDIS trials.
The coil is fired on the rising edge, according to the Megamanual, but now you have me wondering which rising edge? As in pulse from the crank sensor or just from the EST signal. I'd have to assume at this point it's from the EST signal, and the CPS signal is more for reference or as a "back up", as used by the module. I think it will use the CPS at crank, or in LHM, but when it sees 5V on the ESC wire (tan/black), it will then wait for the EST signal.
One reason why I think EDIS will work, is because I use a JimStim on my test bench with GM ECMs, it is set to "EDIS/Distributer" setting. While I realize it's pretty lofty to think that the EDIS will just work directly with the GM ECM, I believe that it may not be as difficult as people are believing at this point.
I need to get a trigger wheel and CPS from an Escort to set up an EDIS test bench, and using a strobe check for changing timing. I have an EDIS-6 module already. I figured if I got it working on the bench, I could acid test it in my car, using that EDIS-6 module.
Ok, so after a bit more reading, it seems that the timing retard induced is from the ref signal, not the EST signal back to the module? It looks like the REF signal goes high about 60* BTDC and goes low at or near TDC.
If that's the case, would it be possible to simply invert the REF signal? Change the falling edge at TDC to a rising edge? A simple RTL inverter circuit would work perfectly (it's what I used to interface with the Toyota igniter).
For my purposes on my particular application, the retard would be irrelevant, since the timing info for the ECU still comes from separate sensors. I would just be using the module to "distribute" the spark.
If that's the case, would it be possible to simply invert the REF signal? Change the falling edge at TDC to a rising edge? A simple RTL inverter circuit would work perfectly (it's what I used to interface with the Toyota igniter).
For my purposes on my particular application, the retard would be irrelevant, since the timing info for the ECU still comes from separate sensors. I would just be using the module to "distribute" the spark.
I'm looking at the scope traces dig posted in this thread: http://www.code59.org/index.php?option= ... 9&catid=15
It shows the REF pulse going to logic 1 about 60* before TDC, the EST pulse going logic 1 at almost the same time. The EST signal goes logic 0 (which is where dig states the coil is fired) and the REF goes logic 0 at TDC, since dig stated that the timing advance is the time/degrees between when EST goes 0 to when REF goes 0.
As for the interface circuit, I'm actually running a Honda distributor on my engine. The interface is just an RTL inverter (signal_in feeding base of BJT through 2.2k resistor, collector tied to signal_out and 5V through 1k pull-up resistor, and emitter to ground). All it does is change the Honda ECU's 12V rising edge trigger to a 5V falling edge trigger for the Toyota igniter.
It shows the REF pulse going to logic 1 about 60* before TDC, the EST pulse going logic 1 at almost the same time. The EST signal goes logic 0 (which is where dig states the coil is fired) and the REF goes logic 0 at TDC, since dig stated that the timing advance is the time/degrees between when EST goes 0 to when REF goes 0.
As for the interface circuit, I'm actually running a Honda distributor on my engine. The interface is just an RTL inverter (signal_in feeding base of BJT through 2.2k resistor, collector tied to signal_out and 5V through 1k pull-up resistor, and emitter to ground). All it does is change the Honda ECU's 12V rising edge trigger to a 5V falling edge trigger for the Toyota igniter.
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delcowizzid
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:22 pm
we have some good DIS info on our delco forum at www.delcohacking.net few CAD drawings of crank triggers and heaps of info on the gm systems theres 2 kinds of V6 DIS modules one runs 2 seperate trigger wheels through a duel halleffect sensor anf=d the other uses a single trigger wheel and hall effect sensor.the lads over there are keen to help out theres a quad cam misti v6 being setup on a delco now on there at the moment plus lots of realtime tuning goodies on the go.sequential isnt all its cracked up to be really like six shooter says its only really good for emmisions it doesnt even help fuel consumption that much
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Six_Shooter
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:32 am
I'll have to check out that site.
kilogram, let me know if you need a starter bin, a friend of mine had a Daewoo engine in his Sunbird running on $59 and GM DIS, just got it running well last week, then a lady sideswiped him and another vehicle on Saturday, poor kid, been having walls put up in front of him and just can't seem to get a break, the car is pretty much stripped if not already gone by now, the lady did a good job on destroying his car, and then drove away. :facepalm:
Anyway, I'd likely be able to get his bin file for you, to start from. If you recall $58, which $59 is built from was also used in the Sunbird GT turbo, so it has native 4 cyl support.
kilogram, let me know if you need a starter bin, a friend of mine had a Daewoo engine in his Sunbird running on $59 and GM DIS, just got it running well last week, then a lady sideswiped him and another vehicle on Saturday, poor kid, been having walls put up in front of him and just can't seem to get a break, the car is pretty much stripped if not already gone by now, the lady did a good job on destroying his car, and then drove away. :facepalm:
Anyway, I'd likely be able to get his bin file for you, to start from. If you recall $58, which $59 is built from was also used in the Sunbird GT turbo, so it has native 4 cyl support.
Sounds good to me. I had an XDF that I was working on with the $58 a couple years ago for the 3SGTE, but it would be nice to start from a known good bin.
Does it use the GM 3bar? That's one thing I don't have, but I do have a toyota sensor housing that I installed a motorola 3bar, and a circuit that I can change the slope and offset of the scale of the motorola sensor, so it should work as a GM if i can find the right slope data.
Incidentally, the circuit would probably work to convert the 2bar GM sensor output (since they're a lot easier to find and cheaper) for someone running less than 14psi of boost.
Does it use the GM 3bar? That's one thing I don't have, but I do have a toyota sensor housing that I installed a motorola 3bar, and a circuit that I can change the slope and offset of the scale of the motorola sensor, so it should work as a GM if i can find the right slope data.
Incidentally, the circuit would probably work to convert the 2bar GM sensor output (since they're a lot easier to find and cheaper) for someone running less than 14psi of boost.