Dmcl does not understand basics of Motronics axis

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revlimit
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Dmcl does not understand basics of Motronics axis

Post by revlimit »

Dmcl you claim to make the best XDF so far for 173 ecu but you don't even understand the basics for motronic RPM axis calculation.
Let the master of motronics teach you then. You can even find this info on the internet but you are too lazy I guess.

Image

Look at the raw data in DEC above that you highlighted. 059 indicates RPM scale data is to begin and 016 means there are 16 blocks of data or map is 1x16 in size. Then count the data all the way to the 16th block, you will see the byte 098 thats the last byte of the RPM scaling, 255-98=154. 157x40=6280rpm, Then 157-(next byte going backwards is 010)=147. 147x40=5880rpm....and so on.

Good morning Columbus, Hello Einstain
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

einstain? is that what his father did on his mothers leg or something? :lol:

im guessing u made a typo in the numbers also since u say 255-98=154 then say 157x40 :P

and yea i have made the best 173 XDF that ive seen anyway but that doesnt automatically mean i know motronic like the back of my nutsack lol, i started off basically on the opposite end of the scale from most tuners/programmers that use programs to edit raw data and such. i started with learing the tuning side first and then onto modifying XDF files, then creating tables and whatnot and most recent has been getting into the raw code side of things. i started out really only wanting to be able to tune my own car cheaply because i didnt trust any off the shelf chips and tuners can be very good or very bad and also expensive. after getting the hang of tuning curiosity and the want to further the cause leads me more and more into the raw code side of everything which i see is somewhat universal for nearly all engine management systems.. i think of it like being in the matrix when im using WinOLS :D

so does that way of working out RPM axis data also apply to all other maps with RPM axes? (ie part throttle maps too), would explain why my calculations gave different RPM values from what was in the XDF i started with.
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revlimit
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Post by revlimit »

Read some of this then get back to me http://motronic.ws/
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

been there already haha

never noticed RPM calculations but i probably got distracted by his other sites and AFM disection pages, etc.

im just working out the numbers on the WOT map before i multiply all the numbers by 40 to get RPM but i noticed something even before i think about editing RPM points.. since the numbers are calculated backwards if i change a number it will also change all the numbers below it too.. im guessing ill have to factor in the change made to the point i want to edit into all the points below it as well to keep the rest of the points where they are already, unless i wanted to change the lower points also.

i dunno if i want to remove a point lower down to add another one up top or if ill just stretch the last couple points out a but further and leave the lower points as they are.. i can forsee a fair bit of exercise for windows calculator tonight lol
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DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

so then for the RPM axis values for that particular map the equations/RPM values should be:

255-098=157 x40=6280
157-010=147 x40=5880
147-006=141 x40=5640
141-007=134 x40=5360
134-007=127 x40=5080
127-006=121 x40=4840
121-009=112 x40=4480
112-006=106 x40=4240
106-006=100 x40=4000
100-004=096 x40=3840
096-012=084 x40=3360
084-011=073 x40=2920
073-029=044 x40=1760
044-005=039 x40=1560
039-015=024 x40=0960
024-005=019 x40=0760

am i right or did i miss anything else? going to have to fix all the WOT RPM values in the XDF and check out the graph to see if theres any points i can do without or if it would be better to just stratch the last couple points out a little more. i think stretching the last points could be easier than removing a point lower down but if a point lower down is not really needed then it could be taken out and used to increase resolution up around where the engine makes peak torque or peak HP where it would be more useful.

might look into trying to make a spreadsheet with that formula in it so i can just enter the RPM points and it spits out the raw number id need to stick in the bin file but the thought of figuring out how to basically reverse the equation above and have it factor in changes to higher numbers down thru the lower numbers also makes my brain want to turn off lol

EDIT ok so i raised the last 3 points a bit in the ignition WOT 1 map and left the rest as they were, this is what i did:

255-089=166 x40=6640
166-010=156 x40=6240
156-013=143 x40=5720
143-009=134 x40=5360
134-007=127 x40=5080
127-006=121 x40=4840
121-009=112 x40=4480
112-006=106 x40=4240
106-006=100 x40=4000
100-004=096 x40=3840
096-012=084 x40=3360
084-011=073 x40=2920
073-029=044 x40=1760
044-005=039 x40=1560
039-015=024 x40=0960
024-005=019 x40=0760

is there any reasoning behind why the RPM axis values differ between WOT ignition map 1 and WOT fuel map 1? i was thinking maybe the same value cant be used for both maps but i see the 760rpm point is the same so that cant be right.. couldnt just be out of pure randomness they decided to set axis values different between fuel and ignition maps? maybe for smoother operation or something?

BTW feel free to add to or fix any mistakes u notice in the XDF and let me know what u found missing/wrong/or that u fixed. between the 2 of us we should be able to make the ultimate, ultimate 173 XDF lol
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BrendanSmall
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Post by BrendanSmall »

Why are all BMW 'tuners' so cocky and/or arrogant?

Who cares who made the 'best' XDF. Sounds like there's a lot of hurt feelings going around.
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

lol

im not being cocky just saying i think the XDF i came up with has the most in it of all the ones ive seen so far.

heard from FR Wilk about changing the points and it looks like its 256 that we should be starting with not 255. ive never been 100% sure on whether the value range is 0-255 or 0-256 but it looks like its 0-256. if thats the case my calculations above are out by 40rpm.
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BrendanSmall
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Post by BrendanSmall »

Wasn't referring to you ;).
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

can anyone clarify whether its 255 or 256 that i should be starting with before subtracting the RPM points?
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BrendanSmall
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Post by BrendanSmall »

It's 256, FR Wilk is correct.
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

ok cool thanks, ill have to tweak the points i set lastnight because i worked them out starting with 255. :lol:
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DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

well ive edited WOT ignition and WOT fuel maps 1 and 2 to now have the RPM points shown below:

256-086=170 x40=6800
170-010=160 x40=6400
160-010=150 x40=6000
150-010=140 x40=5600
140-010=130 x40=5200
130-010=120 x40=4800
120-010=110 x40=4400
110-005=105 x40=4200
105-005=100 x40=4000
100-005=095 x40=3800
095-010=085 x40=3400
085-010=075 x40=3000
075-015=060 x40=2400
060-015=045 x40=1800
045-015=030 x40=1200
030-010=020 x40=0800

is there any problem with setting the RPM points for both the WOT ignition and WOT fuel maps at the same RPM points?

also changing the subject slightly here.. ive started looking at part throttle maps and i see the data identifier (whatever u want to call it, 3B hex for RPM, 40 hex for Load) and the map size identifier after it and all but im wondering if i should be able to also edit the load axis info on the high part throttle map so that the end of the map load wise is beyond the 75% load that its set at normally or would the ECU/sensors not have the capacity for me to decrease the margin between the highest load end of the high part throttle map where it would switch over to the WOT map? would be cool if i could run the high part throttle ignition and fuel maps on out to about 85-90% load before the ECU switches over to the WOT maps. might be a little smoother at and around WOT and the end of the high part throttle maps and on switch over from high part throttle to WOT or is it not worth the hassle?

going to take the car out for a spin later and load up my new BIN with the new WOT RPM points and see how it pulls up high compared to the stock RPM axis points. hoping to be able to get a little more top end power being able to adjust ignition and fuelling up to 6800rpm.

also anyone have any idea if theres a formula i can use for the conversion of pure internal axis info in my XDF so that it automatically displays the correct RPM values nomatter what the RPM axis points are set at? i can get the pure axis data to display fine but since the formula requires subtracting from the sum of the previous formula im not quite sure how that would work for coming up with a formula to calculate all RPM axis points properly from the raw axis data.
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revlimit
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Post by revlimit »

BrendanSmall wrote:Wasn't referring to you ;).
Why "ALL" bmw tuners are arrogant?! Who is "ALL" when I am the only one who starded making XDFs for BMW so people can tune their BMW cars for free! I have a right to be arrogant when I am the only one that helped the community and you come here to milk me for more free stuff, seems like you are lowest of the low ticks parasites.

255 is the highest 8bit DEC value so I don't know if 256 is right or 255.
BrendanSmall
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Post by BrendanSmall »

Meh.

I have never even been in a BMW, never tuned one, never plan to own one. Your work is useless to me. I'm commenting on the fact that you like to tell people how much smarter than them you are, when they ask a question about something you view as simple.

If I'm a lowest of the low tick parasite, then I'm fairly smart for one. 0 is also a value in the DEC scale, which makes 256 the count to use ;).

Hope you don't have to redo any of 'your' XDFs.
robertisaar
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Post by robertisaar »

hostilities: calm them.

the juicy technical info is fine and encouraged, but don't take personal shots at each other.
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

put the handbags away ladies :lol:

im undecided whether i want to make my XDF freely available on the net or not.. was originally thinking i could get it put up on the tunerpro site and also put it up on a few forums and whatnot but then i started thinking about all the ones that dupe other peoples stuff and then sell them as their own like most of the people selling chips for E30's on ebay for example.. not sure if it would benefit them or not tbh. dont really want to help the scavengers make a quick buck off my back but at the same time i dont want to not share with the E30 motronic tuning circle since the more we all know the more we all end up learning, like sicne i now know how to edit axis info from this thread i can pass the knowledge on to others, etc. more people working at the same level is a good thing i think.. more potential for discovering new things, new tricks that can be done with our old motronic boxes and so on..
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revlimit
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Post by revlimit »

The newest tunerpro version 5 has ability to display motronic axis automaticly, but I have not figure out how to do it.

So far no one was able to find anything new when it comes to M1.3 173xdf, If someone has any new information I would like to know
DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

have i not found some new stuff? like that odd statistical map in my XDF? its the only one that hasnt come up as "bosch 8" map in WinOLS, came up as statistical so has to be something different about it? the ECU does read from it.

i have figured out how to display the actual axis information in the maps but i havent figured out how we would put a formula in the XDF parameters that will automatically calculate the axis info into RPM or whatever else we want. i will start a new thread about that in a few minutes here and post some screenshots.

also what about the 3rd/4th set of part throttle maps? i know u would have seen them before but WTF is up with how much advance they have and the associated fuel maps looks like they would run very lean.. im trying to figure out what they are or were supposed to be for. i might even try running them very cautiously because theres more advance on those than any "tuned" set of part throttle maps ive seen.

its true there are only so many maps but its not just who has found all the maps.. its figuring out how they all work and how they affect other maps, when the ECU uses them, why they are there, and most importantly (i think) is which ones we should be tuning to better our performance tunes on these cars. so far all i really ever see being tuned even by name brands like Dinan, Jim C, Active Autowerke, Evolve, Alpina, etc.. are the usual part throttle, WOT and occasionally AFM 1x8 for injectors (because they didnt know about the injector constant map at the time haha).

i really dont care who found what or who knows the most or whatever.. im not here to start a pissing contest i just want to collectively figure out as much as possible because i think M1.3 is very under rated and people ditch it and switch to MS or some other aftermarket management just because there isnt enough understanding about motronic 1.X era management.

@ revlimit, would u mind explaining how i would be able to alter the code in the BIN file to combine the high and low part throttle ignition and fuel maps? i dont want to add anything else like u did with the bigger maps stuff i just want to put both together for a better view of the maps instead of having to look at 2 seperate sets of maps. i understant i will have to change the number of columns following the load descriptor byte and also add in the additional load points for the high part throttle map (assuming i start with the existing LPT map and work on that) but i dont know if i would need to move any of the stuff that i would be overwriting in the space after the LPT map or if i would have to create the combined PT map from scratch somewhere else in the BIN and also how/where to edit so that the ECU knows that the LPT and HPT maps can be found at their new location.

also im curious about adding more RPM axis points to the WOT maps for better resolution across the WOT maps. how would i do that? like instead of having the existing 1x16 WOT maps having either 1x24 or 1x32? i dont mean combining WOT 1 and 2 maps together i mean a 1x24 or 1x32 WOT 1 map so that the ECU reads all of the points when the engines pulling up the RPM's at WOT.

it almost seems like we should be able to basically add any kind and size of map we want into the code for whatever function we want which is ultimately what id like to be able to do. if we can get that far into motronic 1.3 then standalone management would nearly become unnecessary nomatter what u wanted to do with the stock motronic system.
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DmcL
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Post by DmcL »

@ revlimit, also just noticed those injector trim IAT vs battery voltage maps that u have in ur XDF files is actually RPM vs voltage, descriptor byte is 3B for RPM. looks like its a correction map as u say but for RPM vs voltage, must be to do with opening the injectors sooner as revs increase. ive just updated my XDF with the new axis info for those maps (i have 4 in total in my XDF, not sure how many are used) but the 1st and 2nd share RPM values and the 3rd and 4th share slightly different RPM values. same voltage axis info for all 4 tho.
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