TunerPro User Forum

I'm trying to adjust the afr on the WOT map,i use innovate lc-1! but after i put in the chip with new fuel values the AFR is changing on the next day it is different than it was on the first run or the second,example Monday afr was 12.2/12.6 Tuesday 13.6/13.8 Wednesday 13.9/14.7
what is the problem? is there another WOT fuel map in bin file?

New problem i set the rev limiter to 7207 rpm but in the car the rev limiter is now 5600rpm ???

LC-1 is no good. You need AEM UEGO. Stock WOT map is realy good. Don't touch the fuel side, just advance the timing a little and use premium fuel only. As for rev limit, try adjusting it lower to gain more RPM.

my engine is a hybryd of m50 2.5 now it's 2.8 l dbilas cams biger injectors the stock fuel was to rich on low rpm very lean at midle and to rich at high, abaut lc-1 i know many tunners that use them,they say it's the best they know

gavin wrote:my engine is a hybryd of m50 2.5 now it's 2.8 l dbilas cams biger injectors the stock fuel was to rich on low rpm very lean at midle and to rich at high, abaut lc-1 i know many tunners that use them,they say it's the best they know

I made the XDF that you are using, so you are using my work. No one knows better than me.

ok i set the orginal bin,and only advance ignition I set rev limiter to 6700,on the car ,there is no rev limiter!!,and fuel?
1run was litle to rich,
2run fuel to lean,
3run fuel perfect,
4 run to lean,
5run to lean i get knock on hi rpm,
6 run fuel to lean no knock,
7run afr like in 6run 15.4/15.8

you don't know what you are doing and LC1 is no good

I'm sorry i dont know what?
you told me not to change fuel what i did,
you told me to set rev limiter lower,what i did,
you told me to advance only ignition what i did,
now you say i dont know what i'm doing!!
I do what you told me!nothing more
maybe the WOT fuel map you set in XDF is wrong,maybe the rev limiter you set in xdf is wrong.
Did you install this software in the car? or you want other people to do it for you and destroid there engines!! if lc-1 is bad why do i get knock when the AFR is going lean? this prof's that lc-1 shows god read,some thing is wrong!! accept it!!

If you had ostrich2 emulator than you could be able to trace the maps and see what part of map ECU is using. The fuel maps on motronics are all "lambda sensor buffer maps" you can only get small % of the trim on these maps, you adjust them and 02 sensor is making ECU go crazy. You got to disable 02 sensor in order to tune. When the tuning is done you turn on 02 sensor feedback. I did not include 02 sensor on/off in this XDF for 402.
As for rev limit I probably did not calculate the translation correctly so you will have to adjust it in RAW data, right click on the rev limit, edit item xdf info, conversion, edit, out just X, save. Try adjusting it again

gavin, are you using the SST 27SF512 chips?
for me 27SF512 chips did the same thing, every day with new AFR, its like if the chip go crazy and run a different map every time, so I switched to 27C512 they are harder to deal with regarding erasing, but so far they are good, and gave me a constant tune.
Plus the LC-1 is a world wide used device and I don't think you should change it, I have tuned till 1.5 bar on boosted m50 with LC-1 with no problems at all (on standalone ECUs) ,it can be reprogrammed upon your working range (just make sure to recalibrate from time to time).
Try to use other chip, also you have to put in mind that m50 2.5L with m52 2.8L internals or just 2.8L crank will raise your engine CR to about 11.5, so you can't advance the timing too much, plus you have to use higher octane level fuel.
hope that can help

EDIT: Plus its worthy to get your car diagnosed to make sure that all your sensors are running fine.

No chance to have ostrich2 emulator,if you tell me how i will make the lambda regulation on/off swich in XDF.
As for eprom I use 27C256 UV erasable.it is 32 kbit memory 27C512 is 64kbit memory.
Engine compresion is HI I know that,so I use Shell Vpower racing fuel.
for diagnostic i use carsoft interface.

I think the lambda feedback on/off map is located at 7888 hex, on the 599 software, it is 1x6 map, just drop all the values down to 50 that will make the ecu not seek feedback from 02 sensor.

gavin wrote:ok i set the orginal bin,and only advance ignition I set rev limiter to 6700,on the car ,there is no rev limiter!!,and fuel?
1run was litle to rich,
2run fuel to lean,
3run fuel perfect,
4 run to lean,
5run to lean i get knock on hi rpm,
6 run fuel to lean no knock,
7run afr like in 6run 15.4/15.8

Forgive the intrusion, I just wanted to ask if you made these tests immediately after putting the chip or you waited a few days by walking comfortable.
Because, in my experience, when the unit is disconnected, resets the values of "arrangement" that are generated over time, learned from the various sensors. These are not written in the map, but from what I know, are located in the "RAM" of the unit.
So, when you install the new chip with the new mapping for the first time it is normal that the values are not stable, it happened to me. To have a clear idea, I advise you to leave the map installed a few days, go quiet and gradually begin to push hard. Then, after a few days, just testing to see the AFR... I am sure that the situation will be stabilized.

Success !!!after adjusting the feedback in the bin,the AFR is stable,tomorrow I will install big bore throttle and try to adjust the AFR to better value,right now the AFR is little to rich at low rpm,perfect at the middle and to rich at HI

gavin wrote:Success !!!after adjusting the feedback in the bin,the AFR is stable,tomorrow I will install big bore throttle and try to adjust the AFR to better value,right now the AFR is little to rich at low rpm,perfect at the middle and to rich at HI

Are you talking about the 02 sensor feedback map that I told you about?

Yes! I set the feedback map like you told me,and now the AFR is static,today I installed biger trottle,and the AFR was very lean .

Revlimit, how I can turn-off the O2 feedback on 173 ECU?

FastButBlind wrote:Revlimit, how I can turn-off the O2 feedback on 173 ECU?

I explained that already.

Gavin I did so much for you and you did not even thank me. Next time I won't help you.

Yes you did,I'm very grateful especially for the iddle rpm that you told me! but right now it is only thing that works perfect,
I still get medium efect on the car performace
,the rev limiter is still out of control,and the WOT fuel is not changing like i want it,
the engine cost me a lot of work,I don't want destroy it i think you respect that,
all the things you told me and i did on my car may help other people,
So,I'm very grateful for your help but i will wait for perfect results

gavin wrote:Yes you did,I'm very grateful especially for the iddle rpm that you told me! but right now it is only thing that works perfect,
I still get medium efect on the car performace
,the rev limiter is still out of control,and the WOT fuel is not changing like i want it,
the engine cost me a lot of work,I don't want destroy it i think you respect that,
all the things you told me and i did on my car may help other people,
So,I'm very grateful for your help but i will wait for perfect results

I guess you are having some kind of engine hardware failure, check MAF and other sensors, try another ECU, etc. I tuned many M50 engines vanos and not, and they all act pretty much stable if engine hardware is healty. Always tune with o2 sensor disconnected. I'm positive that additional power can be extracted easy from M50 2.8 with a good remap.

I get no error's on diagnostic check,
if I will disconnect the O2 sensor will the ECU swich in to emergency mode?

gavin wrote: if I will disconnect the O2 sensor will the ECU swich in to emergency mode?

no

I still get medium efect on the car performace

Bosch motronic did a good job, so there is not much room for improvement

motronic software gives engine big tolerance for fuel octane level and atmosferic presure,I belive that all mecanic changes i made to my engine are beyond ECU adaptation level,so I nead full control over ECU software

Finally big success,in my 402 tune. all i had to do is drop to 0 all values in lambda fedback, after i drop them to 50 like "revlimiter" told me ECU was still making changes to the fuel maps.
Another thing is that the RPM scale is wrong ,maybe it's because i set the rev limiter higher, the values are moved by 1000rpm,what appears to be 2200rpm is really 3200rpm.
I hope this helps to every one that wants to tune 402

New problem,two weaks ago something happened with fuel mixture,during normal drive it went very Rich,first in idle and part trotle maps 2 days after in WOT map.
I get no errors in ECU,i made new chip with the same map,it gave me nothing next day i made map with lambda adaptation back ON still it get no efect.
there is no mechanical failure,it seems like the ECU went crazy.
I know that "Oldman" have the same problem,he had a theory that "When we set 0 values to the 6 maps, that only stop the ECU try to adjust the fuel with O2 sensor's reading,
I was told if the ECU do not get response from the adjustment from O2 sensor, it will close the O2 sensor circuit after a while,
then the ECU will force full injection of fuel, this is why you get very rich fuel at all maps, AFR may be 10.8 to 12.5
with the O2 sensor feed back turned off"
I know many tuners says that the bmw softwere is very tricky and after some time it will change all fuel maps.
There must be some way to take over the control over the ECU.

Today i tried to do something with AFR,first i disconected the MAF and it helps AFR was around 14.5 but a hade no chance to try it on WOT just made some smooth runs around the block.
But i dont like to run with stuff unplugged,so i did think abaut "injetor constant" i hade to set the "Equation Format" to (x/43478) so it shows 1.0.
i droped the value to 0.80 and now the AFR is around 14.5 even in partial throttle MAP,tommorow i will see what is goig on WOT

For all you guys that have a problem with adaptation on 402 i there is not one but 4 lambda maps i drop values in all off them to 0 and now i have perfect AFR on WOT
first map is 1x6 7888
second one is 1x6 7896
third one is 1x4 78a2
forth is 1x4 78ac

I had opportunity to use a ostrich II i was tracing the WOT ignition map,6x16
the ECU doesent use one column, dureng reving the trace jumps from column 1st to column 4th then to 5th then back to 4th then to 3rd ans then to 5th so i made values in all columns like in column 1st now during reving i know exactly what values ECU is using,the fuuny thing is that the m3e36 WOT ignition map is 6x16 and have the same values in all colums

gavin wrote:For all you guys that have a problem with adaptation on 402 i there is not one but 4 lambda maps i drop values in all off them to 0 and now i have perfect AFR on WOT
first map is 1x6 7888
second one is 1x6 7896
third one is 1x4 78a2
forth is 1x4 78ac

I have tried that, and ECU adaption still get involved after a while, about a week.
I am still at it, in the mean time I am running with a #403 ECU and a file without O2 sensor.

what about simply removing or disconnecting the O2 sensor? i know on my E30 with 173 ECU the O2 sensor related maps are all set as if there was a sensor on the car but here in the UK pre 1992 cars had no O2 sensor. my AFR's remain where i set them and i have never had any issues with AFR changing because of O2 maps.. only changes to AFR i get are down to temperature maps such as IAT and CTS.

slightly off topic here but has anyone found any overrun fuel cut maps on the 173? was messing with my M20 and a friends M20 trying to make them shoot flames on overrun/decel after revving. on his M20 with an exhaust the exhaust would crackle a bit but no flames, on mine with a nearly stock exhaust it just gassed everyone out with petrol fumes lol

we were pulling ignition timing on the low load side of the low part throttle map and ramping up fuel on the low load end of the low part throttle fuel map for fun and giggles. though it may come in handy once i turbo my M20, could help keep the turbo spooled between gears with a nice backfire on overrun.

Oldman wrote:

gavin wrote:For all you guys that have a problem with adaptation on 402 i there is not one but 4 lambda maps i drop values in all off them to 0 and now i have perfect AFR on WOT
first map is 1x6 7888
second one is 1x6 7896
third one is 1x4 78a2
forth is 1x4 78ac

I have tried that, and ECU adaption still get involved after a while, about a week.
I am still at it, in the mean time I am running with a #403 ECU and a file without O2 sensor.

if the AFR is to rich all the time, it mean that your lambda is broken. replace it or try to shortcut the signal cables from lambda.

When you disconnect the O2 sensor,
it only keeps the Lambda circuit open, then the ECU will give full fuel all of the time which gives a vrey rich burn.

I think I have found problem with mine, I am not sure if I am right, but this is what I think:
the origianl ECU is to be run on a 2.5L engine, now I have upgraded the engine to 3.2L
Lambda circuit is still fixing to the 2.5L spec, therefore the AFR is always too lean.

I have tried to increase the MAF value, which gives a lot better AFR,
but usually cause the Lambda circuit to open from time to time.
Tried to adjusted the values in where they think is the Lambda map,
get a bit better, but ECU adaption still gets in after a few days.

Now I am using a file that is without O2 sensor, which means no lambda map,
this gives me very steady AFR, and very sensitive to changes in values of the map.
Still in the progress of fixing up the fueling map

I am trying to find the O2 sensor switch for the #402 ECU,
as I was told #402 ECU is newer and more reliable.

Oldman wrote:When you disconnect the O2 sensor,
it only keeps the Lambda circuit open, then the ECU will give full fuel all of the time which gives a vrey rich burn.

I think I have found problem with mine, I am not sure if I am right, but this is what I think:
the origianl ECU is to be run on a 2.5L engine, now I have upgraded the engine to 3.2L
Lambda circuit is still fixing to the 2.5L spec, therefore the AFR is always too lean.

I have tried to increase the MAF value, which gives a lot better AFR,
but usually cause the Lambda circuit to open from time to time.
Tried to adjusted the values in where they think is the Lambda map,
get a bit better, but ECU adaption still gets in after a few days.

Now I am using a file that is without O2 sensor, which means no lambda map,
this gives me very steady AFR, and very sensitive to changes in values of the map.
Still in the progress of fixing up the fueling map

I am trying to find the O2 sensor switch for the #402 ECU,
as I was told #402 ECU is newer and more reliable.

Don't disconect lambda just shortcut the signal cables,my 402 is 2.8l my AFR was to lean after some time it was to rich but it was lambda foult ,after i replace lambda and drop all the values in those 4 maps to 0 the AFR is ok,it was 3 months ago and AFR is perfect on WOT and part throttle.
still have problem with iddle AFR it jumps from 14.0 to 19.0.

Oldman wrote:When you disconnect the O2 sensor,
it only keeps the Lambda circuit open, then the ECU will give full fuel all of the time which gives a vrey rich burn.

I think I have found problem with mine, I am not sure if I am right, but this is what I think:
the origianl ECU is to be run on a 2.5L engine, now I have upgraded the engine to 3.2L
Lambda circuit is still fixing to the 2.5L spec, therefore the AFR is always too lean.

I have tried to increase the MAF value, which gives a lot better AFR,
but usually cause the Lambda circuit to open from time to time.
Tried to adjusted the values in where they think is the Lambda map,
get a bit better, but ECU adaption still gets in after a few days.

Now I am using a file that is without O2 sensor, which means no lambda map,
this gives me very steady AFR, and very sensitive to changes in values of the map.
Still in the progress of fixing up the fueling map

I am trying to find the O2 sensor switch for the #402 ECU,
as I was told #402 ECU is newer and more reliable.

Okay so first of all don't ever mess with the MAF table UNLESS you are using a different MAF! That is the complete wrong way to adjust fueling; you have FUEL TABLES for adjusting fuel...turn your O2 adaptation off, tune, then turn back on...

The problem is:

1. where to turn off the O2 sensor/Lambda Circuit?Gavin's method was not right, diagnosis tool shows O2 sensor is still at work!

2. Turning off the O2 sensor to tune is the right way to do, but for this situation, After O2 sensor turns back on, the ECU adaption gets in and fix the fueling to a pretty lean mixture.

I think to key to get this right is:
1. find the switch to turn off the O2 sensor
2. find the maps for Lambda Target to adjust, the factory setting is too lean
3. Tune to proper Fueling
4. Turn the O2 sensor on. (Or leave it off if you get a really good tune)

For the M50 Vanos ECU, they have found the Lambda Switch and traget,
but I could not find any infomation for the non-Vanos ECU.
I have started working on it, and getting pretty close, still testing to finalise.

Oldman wrote:The problem is:

1. where to turn off the O2 sensor/Lambda Circuit?Gavin's method was not right, diagnosis tool shows O2 sensor is still at work!

2. Turning off the O2 sensor to tune is the right way to do, but for this situation, After O2 sensor turns back on, the ECU adaption gets in and fix the fueling to a pretty lean mixture.

I think to key to get this right is:
1. find the switch to turn off the O2 sensor
2. find the maps for Lambda Target to adjust, the factory setting is too lean
3. Tune to proper Fueling
4. Turn the O2 sensor on. (Or leave it off if you get a really good tune)

For the M50 Vanos ECU, they have found the Lambda Switch and traget,
but I could not find any infomation for the non-Vanos ECU.
I have started working on it, and getting pretty close, still testing to finalise.

Interesting...Although I am still not understanding. By altering your fuel maps you should be altering your AFR at those load points. I thought that WAS your target lambda? And that by modifying the fuel map you are adjusting the AFR you are shooting for.I'd try setting your MAF back to it's original values before you try anything else.

Set all your maps back to original. Disconnect O2 sensor physically so that it closed loop cannot be engaged and then tune. Then just replugin your o2 sensor when your done. That's what I did on my 413 and it worked fine.

Are you sure you don't have a faulty sensor?

"thedean" Thanks for your concern,
the 402 403 ECU are for Non-Vanos engine and are different from 413
I have tried on #413 ECUs and they can be tuned much easier.
no matter how I adjust the fuel maps, the ECU adaption will fix the AFR acording O2 sensor feed back to its Lambda Target AFR (Which I get 17 at idle and 13.5 at WOT @ 5500RPM and above)
And the difference of the fuel coeficient could be over 40, say I set 150 for WOT @ 5500RPM, it gives AFR 13.5, then I change it up to 190, AFR still get back to 13.5
When the ECU just plug in, it always run rough and rich for about 2~3days,
then ECU adaption leanrt and AFR remain at 13.5 for WOT @ 5500RPM

When disconnecting O2 sensor, "check engine" light remains on, OBD shows error,
the O2 circuit remain open, and ECU gives full fule made it run a lot too rich all of the time.

I have already had the MAF back to the original value,
will tune that when I ge the enlarged housing,
and the O2 sensors been replaced 2 times with new parts, just to make sure they are good.

Have you considered switching to 413 management? You can still run your m50NV on a 413. You will have better MAF options as well.

How can that be done?
Iy would be interesting for a non-Vanos engine to run with #413 ECU
Can you please tell me how?

I know you can unplug the vanos solenoid from a 413 and the car will still run. I don't know if it will put it in open or closed loop. you would have to tap the block for the knock sensors I believe. Or leave them unplugged. Everything else should be swappable.

Then I have misunderstood!
In that case, the wiring harness and MAF got to be replace,
might as well I convert it to a Vanos engine
when you unplug the vanos solenoid, the ECU will run on "retarded" maps

There is a reason why I kept the non-Vanos engine.

I work on 402 and 413 ECU on regular basis.
I can assure you that 402 NV ecu is way much better to tune than the 413
and unplugging the Knock sensors will result in retarding the timing as a fail safe, so no use of the 413 in the first place.
and 1 last thing, lets say you used the 413 ECU and unplugged the Knock sensors the ECU will be using The ignition and fuel in vanos retard mode and that will result in a small resolution table, its not a smart thing to do.

402 and 403 questions are welcome.

Hi aboutton
Seeing your post, brings up a question:

many people are telling me the #413 ECU got faster processor and a lot more definitions can be tuned than the #402, and 95% of people I know are suggesting conversion to Vanos.

I insisted in sticking with the non Vanos due to the suggetion from one experienced racer: "Non Vanos engine got faster acceleration than Vanos engine"

Reading into the maps, I found the #402 ECU got most of the definition that #413 ECU has, but there are many definitions were not defined by us, not expert like you.

So, you are the first one that I hear saying "402 NV ecu is way much better to tune than the 413"
Do you mean #402 ECU is easier to work on or it works better than the #413?
Say, under same condiotion, not counting in the mechanical difference,
which engine give better performance? Vanos or non Vanos?

last week my lambda broke,now my AFR is very rich in idlle and part throttle map.i found another lambda map it is 1x6 7952 adres i droped all the values to 0 now i have full control on iddle fuel and part throttle maps but a made shortcut to lambda signal betwen pin 70 and 71 try it Oldman

Oldman wrote:Hi aboutton
Seeing your post, brings up a question:

many people are telling me the #413 ECU got faster processor and a lot more definitions can be tuned than the #402, and 95% of people I know are suggesting conversion to Vanos.

I insisted in sticking with the non Vanos due to the suggetion from one experienced racer: "Non Vanos engine got faster acceleration than Vanos engine"

Reading into the maps, I found the #402 ECU got most of the definition that #413 ECU has, but there are many definitions were not defined by us, not expert like you.

So, you are the first one that I hear saying "402 NV ecu is way much better to tune than the 413"
Do you mean #402 ECU is easier to work on or it works better than the #413?
Say, under same condiotion, not counting in the mechanical difference,
which engine give better performance? Vanos or non Vanos?

Dear friend,
no doubt that 413 is better and faster but 402 ECU is easier to tune, but for the mechanics, the non vanos heads are stronger and tend to sustain lot of abuse, trust me i have tried both and nothing works like non vanos heads.

If you have a vanos head on hand dont go buy a non vanos 1 but instead change the springs to non vanos ones ( double springs).

gavin wrote:last week my lambda broke,now my AFR is very rich in idlle and part throttle map.i found another lambda map it is 1x6 7952 adres i droped all the values to 0 now i have full control on iddle fuel and part throttle maps but a made shortcut to lambda signal betwen pin 70 and 71 try it Oldman

Thanks Gavin,
you must be using file for chip #599, I am using file for chip #098, which is different address, the same map located at 7932.

Reading into the maps, it is RPM range from 880 to 2200, which does not seems to be for idle, I think it is more for after moves off from idle.

Or anyone could identify this map??

I have already paid people to turn off the O2 sensor on #402 ECU for me,
I am now running without O2 sensor and fuel is direct from the maps,
no more Lambda interference comes in.

aboutton wrote: Dear friend,
no doubt that 413 is better and faster but 402 ECU is easier to tune, but for the mechanics, the non vanos heads are stronger and tend to sustain lot of abuse, trust me i have tried both and nothing works like non vanos heads.

If you have a vanos head on hand dont go buy a non vanos 1 but instead change the springs to non vanos ones ( double springs).

Thank you very much for reply.
What I have on the the head for non Vanos,
I am thinking of getting a head for vanos and do as you said,
the valve stem for the non Vanos head is 6mm instead of 7mm for the non Vanos head.

I do feel the benefit of the double valve spring,
only that there is still a few blind spot to find in the file tunning, maybe you could help:

For PT fueling, say for RPM=800, I have fueling Value 122,
but I have to increase value for idle to 133 to get AFR=15.4
(When the car moves off smoothly, AFR is about 15.0, but when pedal is at mid-way, AFR goes to 13.6)

I could not find where and how to tune this part!

I know I'm resurrecting this thread but I'm too trying to tune with stock ECU.
Hows working? Any more updates?
I mainly would like to know how to read (datalog) from the DME 402.

Very good information here friends. THANK YOU VERRY MUCH!
I stil have some questions if any of you can help me please...

Gavin what software do you have on your 402 ECU ?
Oldman can you tell us the adress for lambda off on a 402 with 098 software please ? or maybe post a link with your modiffied file if possible?

sorry for my bad english.