93 4.6L Northstar bin

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Looking for a bin and any other definition files etc to use TP with a 93 4.6L Northstar motor ECU 16183556 (service# 16180517) BCRL on the box but someone installed an aftermarket chip with the wrong broadcast code. (for a totally different motor)

Post by **robertisaar** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:18 pm

i'm showing BCRL as being the E-body(eldorado), HO Northstar calibration. i don't have that exact one, but i do have a BBSX, which is superceded by BHMU. BCRL is also superceded by BHMU, so there is a good chance it will at least be close to what you need.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:46 am

robertisaar wrote:i'm showing BCRL as being the E-body(eldorado), HO Northstar calibration. i don't have that exact one, but i do have a BBSX, which is superceded by BHMU. BCRL is also superceded by BHMU, so there is a good chance it will at least be close to what you need.

Hi! thanks for the reply. That could work! Is it at all possible you have the complete bin for this with VATS disabled??? Also, I haven't burned chips in years and back then it was a bunch of 27C512 for GM TPI and TBI 7747 cars so any advice on software and how to burn a good chip for my car would be appreciated! Also, is there any good working software with definition files for this motor to be able to read diagnostic info, change chip parameters (like Tuner pro etc.)?? No one seems to have the proper files to make Tuner pro work with this motor.

Post by **robertisaar** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:54 pm

i started making an XDF for the 95 applications(93, 94 and 95 all require different XDFs), but i've put a lot of time into it for not a lot of results.

i don't know if i've ever specfically looked for the VATS option in the calibrations, it probably isn't difficult to find after knowing how it works with similar PCMs, but i haven't done anything with the 93 calibrations beyond recognizing how much changed between the 93-94-95 calibrations.

these MEMCALs are also a bit different.... they have two PROMs in a single carrier, with one completely hidden underneath the knock filter. i've designed an adapter with ZIF sockets on it, but i haven't gotten some bugs worked out of it just yet, the layout stuff isn't coming out correctly and i'm trying to figure out why.

i've had working ADS/ADX files out for a while now..... i don't know if i've ever released the XDF i've worked on.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:44 pm

I was able to get the superseded stock bin file for BCRL which is BHMU and the BHMU trans bin (second chip). I'm new to this second chip thing, can you tell me what the heck the second chip is for??

I'd really like to be able to mod the files but the no XDF issue again.

PM me if you get a chance and we can chat if you don't mind me picking your brain about this stuff.

Post by **robertisaar** » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:07 pm

the northstar PCM is one of 3(i think) series of dual-processor PCMs, the other two are the 94-95(and slightly modified 96-97) LT1 and the 93-95 3100/3.4RWD PCMs. having two processors, they also have two PROMs. generally, everything is split more or less into an engine side and a transmission side. the LT1 and 3100 PCMs use flash ROM while the northstar PCM has two PROMs embedded into a single, removable MEMCAL.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:15 am

robertisaar wrote:the northstar PCM is one of 3(i think) series of dual-processor PCMs, the other two are the 94-95(and slightly modified 96-97) LT1 and the 93-95 3100/3.4RWD PCMs. having two processors, they also have two PROMs. generally, everything is split more or less into an engine side and a transmission side. the LT1 and 3100 PCMs use flash ROM while the northstar PCM has two PROMs embedded into a single, removable MEMCAL.

Thanks, that makes sense. So is the trans prom required if they installed a 700r4 in place of the factory trans? (no electronics) Or can the stock trans prom be left there and it won't affect anything?

Post by **robertisaar** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:47 am

it will need to be present for the second processor to function. without it, the primary processor won't be too happy when it doesn't receive any communications from the secondary.

however..... that is a large jump in operation to go from a 4T80 to a 700R4.... the transmission side isn't going to be very happy to begin with and will throw ALL kinds of codes and operate in a limp mode. how much of that will be reported to the engine side, i dont know.

i think it would be far easier to copy as much relevant stuff(main spark, VE, coolant adders, etc) out of the northstar calibration as possible and use a PCM that isn't going to fight the calibrator so much.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:59 am

robertisaar wrote:it will need to be present for the second processor to function. without it, the primary processor won't be too happy when it doesn't receive any communications from the secondary.

however..... that is a large jump in operation to go from a 4T80 to a 700R4.... the transmission side isn't going to be very happy to begin with and will throw ALL kinds of codes and operate in a limp mode. how much of that will be reported to the engine side, i dont know.

I think it would be far easier to copy as much relevant stuff(main spark, VE, coolant adders, etc) out of the Northstar calibration as possible and use a PCM that isn't going to fight the calibrator so much.

Arrg, don't think changing the PCM and harness is an option at this point. I'm the fourth or fifth person to try and get this beast running and he has spent thousands getting it to this point. They made the mistake of changing to the 93 harness, sensors, intake, and computer obviously with some bad advice from one of the rodshops. The 96 computer originally in there would have bee much easier to tune.

What would you recommend I change it to? I've seen some "sort of" working 7730 applications but nothing really that works well.

Do you think one of these Moates memory adapters can be used? https://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adapte ... l?cPath=64

Post by **robertisaar** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:24 am

http://northstar.7p.com/

that is one 7730 route, though it is setup for a 5 speed fiero. i'm not necessarily a fan of where the calibration ended up at, but it can/does work.

i don't know about the 96-99 northstar PCM.... i know it is a somewhat related version of the 93-95 version in that it still uses dual motorola 68HC11 processors, but it moved to flash PROMs and has a lot of shuffled hardware to deal with the OBD2 requirements.

the moates G1 will not work with this PCM, the MEMCAL is too different from the one a G1/G3 is expected to plug into. last i heard, Moates was working on a northstar adapter, but i haven't heard anything of it in months.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:14 am

robertisaar wrote:http://northstar.7p.com/

that is one 7730 route, though it is setup for a 5 speed fiero. i'm not necessarily a fan of where the calibration ended up at, but it can/does work.

i don't know about the 96-99 northstar PCM.... i know it is a somewhat related version of the 93-95 version in that it still uses dual motorola 68HC11 processors, but it moved to flash PROMs and has a lot of shuffled hardware to deal with the OBD2 requirements.

the moates G1 will not work with this PCM, the MEMCAL is too different from the one a G1/G3 is expected to plug into. last i heard, Moates was working on a northstar adapter, but i haven't heard anything of it in months.

Hmm, this it turning out to be a nightmare and I see why no one has got it working yet, lol. Doing a bit of Google searching and you appear to be the person most involved in this and I guess if you haven't got it going yet I might be out of luck. Question, I've had one company come up that is here in Canada that has apparently cracked the NS code, westersgarage.com. I contacted them and they apparently can sell me a bin file that will work or a whole new chip. Personally I'd rather not have to make the owner pay a few hundred bucks for something I can't look at in tunerpro or change myself but it might be my only option. Thoughts?

Post by **robertisaar** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:21 pm

Westers definitely has access to some stuff, couldn't say how much. i've poured through my own disassembly for many, many hours and while i've likely found all of the tables in both sides and given them rough labels, i've only put definitive labels on maybe 5-10% of them since the rest are rather unusual compared to what GM was doing elsewhere at the time.

i still hold a candle for some yet unknown project involving sticking from the heads/upwards from a L37 onto the 4.0 block, i certainly wouldn't use the northstar PCM to do it though, i don't think it would ever run quite like i would want it to.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:55 am

robertisaar wrote:Westers definitely has access to some stuff, couldn't say how much. i've poured through my own disassembly for many, many hours and while i've likely found all of the tables in both sides and given them rough labels, i've only put definitive labels on maybe 5-10% of them since the rest are rather unusual compared to what GM was doing elsewhere at the time.

i still hold a candle for some yet unknown project involving sticking from the heads/upwards from a L37 onto the 4.0 block, i certainly wouldn't use the northstar PCM to do it though, i don't think it would ever run quite like i would want it to.

Here is my stupid question of the day for you. How can I hook up a laptop to the ALDL port on this ECU and monitor the diag data in real time? I've done this with free third party software with the LT1 and older motors before but not a N* ECU.

Post by **robertisaar** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:25 pm

tunerpro will do it, as long as you have an ADX that will work with it. i've built at least one for the northstar applications, but have no way of testing it.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:44 pm

robertisaar wrote:tunerpro will do it, as long as you have an ADX that will work with it. i've built at least one for the northstar applications, but have no way of testing it.

I used the northstar.ADS on the website and converted it to a ADX in Tunerpro. As far as cables to use will the normal USB to ALDL cables floating around work? If so do you have a link to something showing how to setup TP to do real-time diagnostics displaying?

Post by **robertisaar** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:29 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8iv6n45gpcrzh ... t.adx?dl=0

try that ADX, it isn't what i would call finished(reorganization and labeling needs done), but it should work well enough to see if things are going to play well together.

any ALDL cable that works with other GM stuff that operates at 8192 baud will work here as well.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:03 am

robertisaar wrote:https://www.dropbox.com/s/8iv6n45gpcrzh ... t.adx?dl=0

try that ADX, it isn't what i would call finished(reorganization and labeling needs done), but it should work well enough to see if things are going to play well together.

any ALDL cable that works with other GM stuff that operates at 8192 baud will work here as well.

Thank you I'll give that a try. I ended up buying a BIN file from Westers, hopefully it works. Any chance I could try any XDF files you have for TP that might give me some insight into the bin files I'm using?

Post by **robertisaar** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:08 am

i'll gladly send them under the warning that they're very incomplete and only useful for a 95 calibration.

national84 · Post by **national84** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:42 pm

SOOOO glad to have found this post. I have a neighbor that has a fiero based F40 kit with a twin turbo northstar 95 vintage. He had howell build a harness for it, and since its a turbo he slapped in 42 lb injectors. Stock tune....can you say rich?

He is in his 70's and came to me to see if I can help him out. I have used Tp and code 59 on 1227749 ecm in my typhoon. So, i am slightly more qualified than him.

He purchased a Perfect power piggy back ecu and wants to have fueling modified to stop the serious rich afr's. I am concerned that I have no way to see what is actually going on while the engine is running and fear tuning it blindly.

He is only running about 5.5 psi so I'm fairly certain fueling will solve his issue, but feel like the piggyback is a band aid and would much rather adjust the fuel table and possibly spark to get a better overall setup. Not terribly comfortable with just intercepting map signal to lean things out.

So, my question would be...if I rewire the aldl that howell didn't bother to test, and put the northstar.ads in my tunerpro will I be able to see what is actually going on? Even better, if Robertisaar were kind enough to let me use his 95 xdf, what would I need to actually edit the tune in the ecm instead of this piggy back?

thanks in advance

Post by **robertisaar** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:13 pm

there is more than one problem you're going to run into....

what MAP sensor is being used now?
what trans?

i wouldn't want to try and get the northstar PCM to work in anything other than a cadillac, there is too much intermodule communication/dependancy that now has to be disabled or worked around in anything else.

if you followed the ryan hess route, you could do something as simple as run a 1227730 with 8F and have something that will work with boost. a 7730/7749 with 58 or code59 is another route.

i would pull the main spark and fuel tables from the northstar calibration and you'll have the most significant tables already better than roughed in.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:06 am

robertisaar wrote:i'll gladly send them under the warning that they're very incomplete and only useful for a 95 calibration.

Oh ok, ya they won't work for me then with a 93 calibration.

Question, I made my own ALDL cable from the link below and hook the green and white wires to the "M pin" (Tan) on the ALDL and the black to the "A pin" (ground) on the ALDL connector but the computer definitely does not like it and won't start and backfires. I unplug the cable and car starts. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

Also, in TunerPro RT it says no hardware found when it tries to find this ALDL cable? Any ideas? The drivers for windows 7 are correct and I see the two LEDs on the cable head flash for a second when the software is polling for it but then says nothing can be found.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/compute ... t1-874306/

Just to add, I was given this by one of the Westers guys. So do I jumper A&B and then use TP with the ALDL cable to read the info. from pin M???

Pin A (BLk/Wht) ground
Pin B (Wht/BLk) diagnostic enable to PCM
Pin M (Tan) Data Link to CCM, EBTCM, SDM, Heater-A/C control, PCM

Post by **robertisaar** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:48 pm

with a northstar PCM, you should only need A and M.... i'm not aware of the B pin even being populated on them.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:12 am

robertisaar wrote:with a northstar PCM, you should only need A and M.... i'm not aware of the B pin even being populated on them.

So how have you hooked up to this to get ALDL data in tunerpro? What cable etc did you use?

Should be as simple as hooking to M for data and A for ground and turning on the ignition to start the data stream?

Post by **robertisaar** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:04 pm

i don't have a 93-95 northstar car to play with..... i've built prototype definitions and had people test them. any ALDL cable that works with 8192 baud datastreams should work.

i looked into the connector issue, the B pin only appears to be used on the 4.9 cars to force it into set-timing mode.

grabbing data should be about as simple as other cars from the era but with some added datastream silencing(or scheduling).

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:28 pm

robertisaar wrote:i don't have a 93-95 northstar car to play with..... i've built prototype definitions and had people test them. any ALDL cable that works with 8192 baud datastreams should work.

i looked into the connector issue, the B pin only appears to be used on the 4.9 cars to force it into set-timing mode.

grabbing data should be about as simple as other cars from the era but with some added datastream silencing(or scheduling).

Ok, looked over the wiring diagram the installer used and it appears its not "B" but "L" pin in the diagrams. So Tan "M", Black "A", and brown is "L". I'll have to double check when I get access to the car again and make sure the guy wired it right, maybe I was seeing "L" as "B" not paying attention. Either way how do I get the data stream to start on pin "M" on these ECUs? Normally you have to use the dash controls to enable it on a stock Caddy. Also, any idea what the brown wire pin "L" is for???

Post by **robertisaar** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:20 pm

do you happen to know the exact year/model of the car your harness was pulled from?

the L and M pins are used as kind of a ring network(i believe that's the correct term)... it varies a bit depending on the engine/year/model, even if it is a domestic market vs export car.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:44 pm

robertisaar wrote:do you happen to know the exact year/model of the car your harness was pulled from?

the L and M pins are used as kind of a ring network(i believe that's the correct term)... it varies a bit depending on the engine/year/model, even if it is a domestic market vs export car.

He used a aftermarket harness - Ron Francis Telorvek NS-93 https://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NS-93

There is not much in the install instructions about the ALDL connections other than labeling the three wires A, M, & L

I forgot to add, do you know where I can find a good wiring diagram showing the ALDL connections to PCM??? Google is giving me nothing.

Post by **robertisaar** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:05 pm

hmm..... hard to tell what exactly is going on there.

anyways, here is what GM did for what looks like all possible options on the 93-95 northstars(except for the allante):

http://imgur.com/3MAiMkB,d6wkJMW

it would seem that you can have a broken wire anywhere in there and everything will still work correctly(except for the EBTCM, which is 1-wire). if you lose two, then things will start failing to communicate.

on the US cars, the ALDL connector cover appears to be one of those "broken" points. so, for all purposes, they're the same circuit(both being numbered circuit 800 is also a clue for that), so any traffic happening on one will happen on the other.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:24 pm

robertisaar wrote:hmm..... hard to tell what exactly is going on there.

anyways, here is what GM did for what looks like all possible options on the 93-95 northstars(except for the allante):

http://imgur.com/3MAiMkB,d6wkJMW

it would seem that you can have a broken wire anywhere in there and everything will still work correctly(except for the EBTCM, which is 1-wire). if you lose two, then things will start failing to communicate.

on the US cars, the ALDL connector cover appears to be one of those "broken" points. so, for all purposes, they're the same circuit(both being numbered circuit 800 is also a clue for that), so any traffic happening on one will happen on the other.

Ok, so L and M appear to be the same signal, weird, why have two of the same? Anyway, so in your opinion the M and L pins should be sending the data stream all the time and i don't have to "activate" it like other Gm cars?

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:03 pm

677litre wrote:
robertisaar wrote:hmm..... hard to tell what exactly is going on there.

anyways, here is what GM did for what looks like all possible options on the 93-95 northstars(except for the allante):

http://imgur.com/3MAiMkB,d6wkJMW

it would seem that you can have a broken wire anywhere in there and everything will still work correctly(except for the EBTCM, which is 1-wire). if you lose two, then things will start failing to communicate.

on the US cars, the ALDL connector cover appears to be one of those "broken" points. so, for all purposes, they're the same circuit(both being numbered circuit 800 is also a clue for that), so any traffic happening on one will happen on the other.
Ok, so L and M appear to be the same signal, weird, why have two of the same? Anyway, so in your opinion the M and L pins should be sending the data stream all the time and i don't have to "activate" it like other Gm cars?

Also, is there anyone you know that might be willing to tell me how they accessed the ALDL stream on this 4.6L N*?

Post by **robertisaar** » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:56 pm

L and M seem to act as redundant circuits for each other, likely due to how dependant all of the modules in the car are with each other.

it does need to be "activated" in that the always being transmitted datastream needs to be disabled via commands from a laptop(or tech1 or xxx), then send out packet requests to whatever module you're looking to gather data from.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:35 am

robertisaar wrote:L and M seem to act as redundant circuits for each other, likely due to how dependant all of the modules in the car are with each other.

it does need to be "activated" in that the always being transmitted datastream needs to be disabled via commands from a laptop(or tech1 or xxx), then send out packet requests to whatever module you're looking to gather data from.

After going through some of the schematics for the system I determine the same thing that their needs to be two way communication between a device on the ALDL port to get the data stream. Normally done by the dash controls in a stock vehicle or mimic'd by a handheld scan tool.

I purchased some special cables for a friend's Genisys EVO 5 unit that will allow me to talk to the ECU and data log codes and the live data streams. $200 I didn't want to spend but I've gone this far.

It's to bad someone hasn't figured out the simple polling a device does for the two way communication so a laptop can be used. No point I guess after ODB 2 ECUs came out and the low N* following.

golden95 · Post by **golden95** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:45 pm

hi, I am also very interested in, and working on, tuning a 16197429 BMBR 3.48 trans and BMRY 3.71 trans for my own vehicle. I have bin files for both, I used my Burn2 to copy them from the factory memcals, but I am kind of lost with out a definition file and data stream file. myself and a couple knowledgeable friends are working on the definition file part...

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:23 pm

Unfortunately the only guys I've found that have cracked the N* ECU is Westers Garage people. If there is a way to read the ALDL data stream with a laptop I haven't found it yet.

I'll be testing a hand held scanner this week to read the data stream.

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:31 pm

I'm currently using a 16180517 ECU with BHMU bin on the 93 4.6L. Would a 16197429 ECU work on a 93 with the BHMU code?

Everything I attach to the ALDL port including a hand held scanner that is suppose to work seems to short out the data line because every time I have something connected to it the car turns over but won't start. Disconnect and it starts fine. any thoughts? I'm wondering if the ECU is bad due to them installing the wrong MEMCAL prior to me working on it.

Post by **robertisaar** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:24 am

from what I remember, the 7429 was able to be used in place of the other ECMs used up until its introduction, it essentially had some hardware fixes and got a new part number because of it.

the turning over but not firing is odd... what happens if you plug it in while the engine is already running?

677litre · Post by **677litre** » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:08 am

robertisaar wrote:from what I remember, the 7429 was able to be used in place of the other ECMs used up until its introduction, it essentially had some hardware fixes and got a new part number because of it.

the turning over but not firing is odd... what happens if you plug it in while the engine is already running?

The odd thing I notice is both ALDL data line M and L stay at 5volts when the key is on as well as when it is running and never change. I thought the voltage would be fluctuating as the data stream is constantly sent on the line. Is there any special way the data stream needs to be activated? Note I have no stock IPC (instrument panel console) installed as its a hotrod